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Bi-directional Charger Question

11595 Views 96 Replies 25 Participants Last post by OceanShawn, 3 mo ago

UltraVol

Discussion Starter · Mar 14, 2022 (Edited)

Lately, I've been trying to think through how I'm going to handle my EV charging setup in my garage. I met with an electrician this week to get an idea of what was going to be involved in getting a 240V outlet installed in my garage to handle a L2 charger. Thankfully, it appears that I have room in my main box for the needed dedicated circuit to power the charger. We explored wire routing alternatives from my main box in the laundry room to the garage wall where I would want to mount the charger. The electrician estimated the cost would run somewhere between $500 and $1,000 depending on how we ended up running the new wiring. His cost estimate was falling within my estimated range for this project.

I've also been doing some research on what type and brand of L2 charger that I would want to use. Our Oceans are going to have, as I understand it, the capability of "Vehicle to House" (V2H) and "Vehicle to Grid" (V2G) charging. Also, as I understand it, one would need a "Bi-directional" charger in order to take advantage of this feature that comes with the Ocean. Assuming this is all correct, I have also done some research on bi-directional chargers and I am finding two things: 1) They are expensive, and 2) Not many are currently available. The Wallbox Quasar and Quasar 2 (latest model just released) is the only one that I'm finding that looks like it might fit the bill?

So, my question is: Is anybody else considering a bi-directional charger setup, and, if so, have you found any other options beyond the Wallbox Quasar series? I suspect there will be other manufacturers coming out with versions of these chargers in the next few months since other OEM EV car companies are putting these capabilities into there vehicles (ie. KIA EV6, Ioniq 5, F-150 Lighting, Hummer, Chevy Silverado, etc., etc.). Thoughts or recommendations?

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ToddH65

· #2 · Mar 14, 2022

I have looked briefly at the Quasar 2. Agree they are not cheap, but if you compare to the price of a gas generator, it really isn’t too bad. Agree that others will probably be available in the near future

Reactions: 1

Blu Angel

· #3 · Mar 14, 2022

@UltraVol
Since I already own a Tesla 3 and have installed the Tesla wall charger,
then I'm sticking with this.
Cost me $1000 to have a certified electrician run the power cable
to my 200 amp panel plus $600 for the Tesla charger (in 2018)

Automotive lighting Electricity Peripheral Audio equipment Gas

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TT97

· #4 · Mar 14, 2022

Also, keep in mind that if you want true V2H, you will also need the electrician to install an automatic transfer switch - not really sure on that cost but would be an additional expense.

On a side note, I do have the Pulsar Wallbox (one way charger) at home and I have been very happy with it. I replaced the Tesla HPWC when we got the ID.4 (between tax credits/rebates and selling the old HPWC, I actually made money switching units).

Reactions: 1

Daytime

· #5 · Mar 14, 2022

UltraVol said:
Lately, I've been trying to think through how I'm going to handle my EV charging setup in my garage. I met with an electrician this week to get an idea of what was going to be involved in getting a 240V outlet installed in my garage to handle a L2 charger. Thankfully, it appears that I have room in my main box for the needed dedicated circuit to power the charger. We explored wire routing alternatives from my main box in the laundry room to the garage wall where I would want to mount the charger. The electrician estimated the cost would run somewhere between $500 and $1,000 depending on how we ended up running the new wiring. His cost estimate was falling within my estimated range for this project.

I've also been doing some research on what type and brand of L2 charger that I would want to use. Our Oceans are going to have, as I understand it, the capability of "Vehicle to House" (V2H) and "Vehicle to Grid" (V2G) charging. Also, as I understand it, one would need a "Bi-directional" charger in order to take advantage of this feature that comes with the Ocean. Assuming this is all correct, I have also done some research on bi-directional chargers and I am finding two things: 1) They are expensive, and 2) Not many are currently available. The Wallbox Quasar and Quasar 2 (latest model just released) is the only one that I'm finding that looks like it might fit the bill?

So, my question is: Is anybody else considering a bi-directional charger setup, and, if so, have you found any other options beyond the Wallbox Quasar series? I suspect there will be other manufacturers coming out with versions of these chargers in the next few months since other OEM EV car companies are putting these capabilities into there vehicles (ie. KIA EV6, Ioniq 5, F-150 Lighting, Hummer, Chevy Silverado, etc., etc.). Thoughts or recommendations?

I am also very interested in the V2H capability. The original Wallbox Quasar was for Europe. The Quasar2 is for NAm. and production is scheduled for 4qtr. Estimate of cost is about $4,000. This is actually cheap compared to currently available home power storage units. I found another unit made by Delta but it was not clear if it is actually available. In my situation a Level 1 charger should meet my daily needs so no hurry to have anything installed right away.

UltraVol

Discussion Starter · #6 · Mar 14, 2022

Daytime said:
I am also very interested in the V2H capability. The original Wallbox Quasar was for Europe. The Quasar2 is for NAm. and production is scheduled for 4qtr. Estimate of cost is about $4,000. This is actually cheap compared to currently available home power storage units. I found another unit made by Delta but it was not clear if it is actually available. In my situation a Level 1 charger should meet my daily needs so no hurry to have anything installed right away.

Thanks Daytime. Sounds like you and I are going in the same direction on this. Yeah, I never did get much of a handle on what the Quasar 2 unit was going cost. I guess it's so new they have not yet worked out pricing yet. At $4,000 it would take quite a long time from a cost-benefit analysis to hit the breakeven point. I also wonder how efficient it would actually be in balancing out the energy peaks and lulls for your house...V2H during peak cost periods and H2V during the night time low cost periods? Who knows if it's even worth the effort? But, it's nice to be able to power your home for several days in the event you lose power for an extended amount of time. Suppose, for instance, a cyber attack knocked out our power-grid for several days.

Would be a good backup if your don't have a whole house generator...which I don't have!

Like you say, no need to be in a big hurry. I'm estimating that I'll get my car around mid-year 2023 which gives plenty of time to see how this technology progresses. I feel sure there will be more availability and the cost will be more reasonable a year from now. I think Ford, and maybe some of the other OEMs, are developing some bi-directional chargers since they are offering this ability with some of their vehicles too. Perhaps those would be compatible with the Ocean?

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UltraVol

Discussion Starter · #7 · Mar 16, 2022

UltraVol said:
Thanks Daytime. Sounds like you and I are going in the same direction on this. Yeah, I never did get much of a handle on what the Quasar 2 unit was going cost. I guess it's so new they have not yet worked out pricing yet. At $4,000 it would take quite a long time from a cost-benefit analysis to hit the breakeven point. I also wonder how efficient it would actually be in balancing out the energy peaks and lulls for your house...V2H during peak cost periods and H2V during the night time low cost periods? Who knows if it's even worth the effort? But, it's nice to be able to power your home for several days in the event you lose power for an extended amount of time. Suppose, for instance, a cyber attack knocked out our power-grid for several days. Would be a good backup if your don't have a whole house generator...which I don't have!

Like you say, no need to be in a big hurry. I'm estimating that I'll get my car around mid-year 2023 which gives plenty of time to see how this technology progresses. I feel sure there will be more availability and the cost will be more reasonable a year from now. I think Ford, and maybe some of the other OEMs, are developing some bi-directional chargers since they are offering this ability with some of their vehicles too. Perhaps those would be compatible with the Ocean?

Okay all you engineering types out there, any idea if this Ford Bi-directional charger would work on our Oceans? They are selling (sold out currently) for a little over $1,300 through Ford Motor Co. Ford's pricing is probably going to come in lower than the latest version of the Wallbox Quasar 2 Bi-directional unit. Wallbox is yet to announce their pricing for the newly released Quasar 2. Here's the link I ran across: Ford launches its bi-directional home charging station at a surprisingly good price - Electrek

UltraVol

Discussion Starter · #8 · Mar 16, 2022

UltraVol said:
Okay all you engineering types out there, any idea if this Ford Bi-directional charger would work on our Oceans? They are selling (sold out currently) for a little over $1,300 through Ford Motor Co. Ford's pricing is probably going to come in lower than the latest version of the Wallbox Quasar 2 Bi-directional unit. Wallbox is yet to announce their pricing for the newly released Quasar 2. Here's the link I ran across: Ford launches its bi-directional home charging station at a surprisingly good price - Electrek

Here's another link showing the connector: Ford Charge Station Pro Pricing Revealed (insideevs.com)

Daytime

· #9 · Mar 16, 2022

Unfortunately they do not talk about the home integration system that has to be purchased from Sunrun. This additional to the $1300 for the charger. I believe the Wallbox Quasar2 has everything combined but I could be wrong. After a quick search it looks like Sunrun will announce their pricing later this spring.

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MTN Ranger

· #10 · Mar 16, 2022

V2H is not a cheap solution - but it is interesting. Also having a 60-100 A connection seems to be needed to get the most out of the system (at least the Ford version). Luckily it can be adjusted to lower numbers depending on your available breaker requirements. It's possible that the Ocean doesn't support such a high amp rating, especially considering that the F150 Lightning has a 98-131 kWh pack.

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radioactiveman

· #11 · Mar 16, 2022

There will be an interesting project/offering in Germany/Europe from openWB (Text in German). Even though I am German I do not understand half of it ;-) but I guess it will be the openWB Pro also serving bi-directional in future. In the text for this it says:
The openWB Pro has implemented ISO15118-20 according to the current draft. It is therefore Vehicle 2 Grid ready.
The vehicle must support ISO15118 on AC side.
On the AC side, no purchasable vehicle currently supports this (Nov 2021).
Software side deactivated in delivery state. There is currently (Nov 2021) no purchasable vehicle that can do this. The regulations for regenerative power supply have not yet been defined. However, the technical basis for this is available.

No clue if Fisker Ocean V2H is implemented according to ISO15118. Like with other features I expect things will clarify not as early as the Fisker Ocean and it's PowerHouse will be delivered. And I would like not to be the first one to try things out as I admit: I am cost-sensitive.

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UltraVol

Discussion Starter · #12 · Mar 16, 2022

radioactiveman said:
There will be an interesting project/offering in Germany/Europe from openWB (Text in German). Even though I am German I do not understand half of it ;-) but I guess it will be the openWB Pro also serving bi-directional in future. In the text for this it says:
The openWB Pro has implemented ISO15118-20 according to the current draft. It is therefore Vehicle 2 Grid ready.
The vehicle must support ISO15118 on AC side.
On the AC side, no purchasable vehicle currently supports this (Nov 2021).
Software side deactivated in delivery state. There is currently (Nov 2021) no purchasable vehicle that can do this. The regulations for regenerative power supply have not yet been defined. However, the technical basis for this is available.

No clue if Fisker Ocean V2H is implemented according to ISO15118. Like with other features I expect things will clarify not as early as the Fisker Ocean and it's PowerHouse will be delivered. And I would like not to be the first one to try things out as I admit: I am cost-sensitive.

Thanks radioactiveman for your input on this subject. I agree with you; and, I must admit that "I am cost-sensitive" as well! Hopefully, we will be able close our knowledge gap in this area, and get a better understanding of the pros and cons of bi-directional charging as time goes by, while we're waiting on our Ocean to be built and delivered. There will surely be new entrants into this important charging alternative since more and more auto manufacturers are most likely going to offer this option with their vehicles. Live and Learn! ⚡

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radioactiveman

· #13 · Mar 16, 2022

UltraVol said:
Live and Learn!

better than: Pay and Learn!

Reactions: 1

epski

· #14 · Mar 17, 2022

ToddH65 said:
I have looked briefly at the Quasar 2. Agree they are not cheap, but if you compare to the price of a gas generator, it really isn’t too bad. Agree that others will probably be available in the near future

As of now, I am monitoring the Quasar 2, which I think is going to be available next half of this year, but I'm definitely keen to see what my other options are. Ford's bidirectional option doesn't seem too expensive, but unless I am confused by their website, it only seems to work with their new F150 Lightning.

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sailon

· #15 · Mar 22, 2022

I already have a transfer box in my garage that enables me to plug in a gas generator to run four circuits in the house. I’m not technically inclined enough to know the answer to this but I’m curious about whether there would be a way to connect the Ocean to the transfer box?

Jay

· #16 · 11 mo ago

FWIW, Emporia has a bi-directional charger coming in 2023. How the Emporia V2X Bi-Directional Charger Works. I am also starting to poke at the Quasar 2 that @epski mentioned.

More options are better at this point.

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Baker

· #17 · 11 mo ago

Jay said:
FWIW, Emporia has a bi-directional charger coming in 2023. How the Emporia V2X Bi-Directional Charger Works. I am also starting to poke at the Quasar 2 that @epski mentioned.

More options are better at this point.

Thank you to share

I already have a generator's system plugged to the house during outage but this one is looking great. I will keep that one in mind.

Jay

· #18 · 11 mo ago (Edited)

FWIW, I spoke with a customer service rep at Emporia today & they added 3 pieces of info:

Expected price ~$1500 for the bi-directional charger (seems good to me)
Hoping to release Summer 2023.
If you aren't interfacing with solar, then this is the one item you need. There's an additional $85 (yes, eighty-five) item if you want to hook the charging into your solar array.

Basic spec sheet: https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5fff2b7694451e66ba2f5a3d/62391e1af2e2de84a391b2e2_V2X Charger Technical Specs.pdf

Press Release: https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5fff2b7694451e66ba2f5a3d/621cf94629b35395f861b68c_PRESS RELEASE - BREK and Emporia Partnership.pdf

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MTN Ranger

· #19 · 11 mo ago

Jay said:
FWIW, I spoke with a customer service rep at Emporia today & they added 3 pieces of info:

Expected price ~$1500 for the bi-directional charger (seems good to me)

Hoping to release Summer 2023.

If you aren't interfacing with solar, then this is the one item you need. There's an additional $85 (yes, eighty-five) item if you want to hook the charging into your solar array.

Basic spec sheet: https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5fff2b7694451e66ba2f5a3d/62391e1af2e2de84a391b2e2_V2X Charger Technical Specs.pdf

Press Release: https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5fff2b7694451e66ba2f5a3d/621cf94629b35395f861b68c_PRESS RELEASE - BREK and Emporia Partnership.pdf

Very cool. I'll definitely be checking up on their progress.

Wobbegong

· #20 · 11 mo ago

I too plan to get the Emporia EMV2X1 EVSE (it's not really a charger -- the actual charger is built-in to all EVs).

I currently have their (non-V2H) Smart Home EV Charger (https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5ff...395847d4b83206_EV Charger Technical Specs.pdf, only $400), and it works great. I can turn it on or off and schedule charging from my iPhone and iPad.

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