[IBRLYNOR]

LOL, I've been researching V2H solutions and just found the Emporia and came to Ocean Forums to share the wealth and ... well, apparently I should have checked here first!

I don't know if anyone has been following what's going on with Ford's F-150 Lightning / Sunrun "Home Integration System" but that's a hot mess. I hope Fisker doesn't go down that path. Fisker is pushing Wallbox for now but only the Pulsar Plus which is rated for 40A max. Check out the ChargePoint Home Flex which goes up to 48A (hardwired). That's what I have and it has served me very well. I'm hoping to switch to the Emporia bi-directional charger when that comes out in 2023 and I'm hoping it won't require any other "components" (hopefully it can sense if the panel has power ... or it may require the Emporia 200A sensor which hopefully won't be difficult to install). I'll take 48A over 80A if that means I don't have to deal with Sunrun or any company like that. There's a Taiwanese company named Delta that's also trying to bring a bi-directional charger to market but the online sources are old and seem to trail off. Also I think theirs only went up to ~7kW.

 

[onevoice]

LOL, I've been researching V2H solutions and just found the Emporia and came to Ocean Forums to share the wealth and ... well, apparently I should have checked here first!

I don't know if anyone has been following what's going on with Ford's F-150 Lightning / Sunrun "Home Integration System" but that's a hot mess. I hope Fisker doesn't go down that path. Fisker is pushing Wallbox for now but only the Pulsar Plus which is rated for 40A max. Check out the ChargePoint Home Flex which goes up to 48A (hardwired). That's what I have and it has served me very well. I'm hoping to switch to the Emporia bi-directional charger when that comes out in 2023 and I'm hoping it won't require any other "components" (hopefully it can sense if the panel has power ... or it may require the Emporia 200A sensor which hopefully won't be difficult to install). I'll take 48A over 80A if that means I don't have to deal with Sunrun or any company like that. There's a Taiwanese company named Delta that's also trying to bring a bi-directional charger to market but the online sources are old and seem to trail off. Also I think theirs only went up to ~7kW.

I chatted with an Emporia representative, and he said their bi-directional charger is all you need, just hard wire into the main breaker panel connected to 60A breaker, and you're good to go. The estimated MSRP for the unit is targeted currently at $1,500. So I believe this is the best cost effective deal out there now. Everything else is more expensive or need additional ancillary equipment. I did look into the Ford F-150 lightning charger that is capable of bi-directional charger, but that additional equipment together will be more than $1,500 for sure.

 

[IBRLYNOR]

I chatted with an Emporia representative, and he said their bi-directional charger is all you need, just hard wire into the main breaker panel connected to 60A breaker, and you're good to go. The estimated MSRP for the unit is targeted currently at $1,500. So I believe this is the best cost effective deal out there now. Everything else is more expensive or need additional ancillary equipment. I did look into the Ford F-150 lightning charger that is capable of bi-directional charger, but that additional equipment together will be more than $1,500 for sure.

Nice! Good to know, thank you! $1,500 for bidirectional with no other hardware required is fantastic, especially given most chargers are inching up in price yet most of them only achieve 40A at best! Meanwhile, the Ford/Sunrun solution costs $4K just for the integration system, then several thousand more for installation. Prospective buyers are getting the run-around depending on the market and whether they’re interested in solar as well. 🤦‍♂️

Sounds like I will be able to just swap my ChargePoint out for Emporia when it’s available. Let’s hope “2023” is not December 2023! 😅

 

[rr191]

So if the bi-directional charger is hook to to a 60 amp breaker, does that mean I can only supply up to 60 amps to the house during a power outage?

 

[SeaPhil4]

So if the bi-directional charger is hook to to a 60 amp breaker, does that mean I can only supply up to 60 amps to the house during a power outage?

Good question! These are the things that novices like myself wonder about. I am fortunate in that our home was just built in 2020 and has breaker amp available, just hope that a 60A can be added to it without any overload concerns.

 

[MTN Ranger]

So if the bi-directional charger is hook to to a 60 amp breaker, does that mean I can only supply up to 60 amps to the house during a power outage?

Just like any circuit, the useable amount is 80% of the rated max. So 48 A is the highest continuous load that can go through a 60 A circuit (either in or out).

 

[IBRLYNOR]

Good question! These are the things that novices like myself wonder about. I am fortunate in that our home was just built in 2020 and has breaker amp available, just hope that a 60A can be added to it without any overload concerns.

A/C maxes out around 50A, oven around 30A, dryer around 30A, etc. These are all "maximum" loads, including the 20% MTN Ranger mentioned. You could probably run all of those AND charge your car at 48A and be OK (assuming a 200A panel). Going the other direction (48A of discharging from your Fisker Ocean), you can see how it's either "lights on" (including essentials like your refrigerator and coffee machine! ;-) ) or just running the dryer or the furnace/air handler. You probably can't do much more than that ... but that's not to say I won't try to run the A/C and keep the lights on at the same time!

 

[crider1]

I chatted with an Emporia representative, and he said their bi-directional charger is all you need, just hard wire into the main breaker panel connected to 60A breaker, and you're good to go.

Then manually close the main breaker? Trying to figure out what the utility will require in the way of isolation from the grid when operating in reverse direction.

 

[rr191]

A/C maxes out around 50A, oven around 30A, dryer around 30A, etc. These are all "maximum" loads, including the 20% MTN Ranger mentioned. You could probably run all of those AND charge your car at 48A and be OK (assuming a 200A panel). Going the other direction (48A of discharging from your Fisker Ocean), you can see how it's either "lights on" (including essentials like your refrigerator and coffee machine! ;-) ) or just running the dryer or the furnace/air handler. You probably can't do much more than that ... but that's not to say I won't try to run the A/C and keep the lights on at the same time!

So this running your whole house things is a bit misleading.

I could live without air conditioning here in northern Ohio. Would need heat in the winter. Likely I have a gas furnace and I would just need to run the fan. Same with hot water. I could easily run the refrigerator and chest freezer, and some lights around the house.

 

[onevoice]

Then manually close the main breaker? Trying to figure out what the utility will require in the way of isolation from the grid when operating in reverse direction.

No, you don't have to manually operate the main breaker. The Emporia bi-directional charger contains smart switching logic to detect when utility power is lost, then automatically provide backup power to the house from the vehicle battery. Some manufacturer's bi-directional charger requires ancillary equipment to perform the utility power sensing and switching, like the F-150 Lighting bi-directional charger. The Emporia bi-directional charger implements the ISO 15118 V2G interface. The ISO 15118 specifies how the various parts of the V2G connected systems operate.

You can go here to learn more about the Emporia bi-directional charger. Here is a short YT explaining how the Emporia bi-directional charger works:

 

[onevoice]

A/C maxes out around 50A, oven around 30A, dryer around 30A, etc. These are all "maximum" loads, including the 20% MTN Ranger mentioned. You could probably run all of those AND charge your car at 48A and be OK (assuming a 200A panel). Going the other direction (48A of discharging from your Fisker Ocean), you can see how it's either "lights on" (including essentials like your refrigerator and coffee machine! ;-) ) or just running the dryer or the furnace/air handler. You probably can't do much more than that ... but that's not to say I won't try to run the A/C and keep the lights on at the same time!

The maximum power that the bi-directional can provide is 48A x 240V = 11,520 watts, which is the same power that it will provide to the vehicle during charging. So we'll have to ensure that we don't draw more than that during power outage. Probably one 240V appliance such as the dryer or the furnace/air handler that draws actual 30A or less and the lights. It might be risky running 240V system such as the central A/C or heat pump, since they have high current initial draw that may for brief time exceed the 11,520 watts available when too many loads are operating simultaneously. I have two stage heat pump which draws around 30A at low stage, so it's possible that I may be able to manually put the heat pump in low stage mode through the service menu on the thermostat and then after the heat pump is running, I could run lights and 1 or 2 other 110V devices drawing less than 1850 watts such as microwave oven, induction cooktop. So you would have to be careful that unnecessary 240V circuits are turned off and be careful about running high wattage 110V devices in combination.

 

[Vincent]

The maximum power that the bi-directional can provide is 48A x 240V = 11,520 watts, which is the same power that it will provide to the vehicle during charging. So we'll have to ensure that we don't draw more than that during power outage. Probably one 240V appliance such as the dryer or the furnace/air handler that draws actual 30A or less and the lights. It might be risky running 240V system such as the central A/C or heat pump, since they have high current initial draw that may for brief time exceed the 11,520 watts available when too many loads are operating simultaneously. I have two stage heat pump which draws around 30A at low stage, so it's possible that I may be able to manually put the heat pump in low stage mode through the service menu on the thermostat and then after the heat pump is running, I could run lights and 1 or 2 other 110V devices drawing less than 1850 watts such as microwave oven, induction cooktop. So you would have to be careful that unnecessary 240V circuits are turned off and be careful about running high wattage 110V devices in combination.

So 48A x 240V = 11,520 watts, with a 100Kw battery = about 9 hours before the battery is dead if you use the power available at 100%. For that reason alone I would not use the washing machine, electric induction cooking or an oven in a situation of a grid power outage... But you can run your heat pump, fridge, lights and wifi at home, and that will last a few days with a 100KW battery in the car.

 

[IBRLYNOR]

So 48A x 240V = 11,520 watts, with a 100Kw battery = about 9 hours before the battery is dead if you use the power available at 100%. For that reason alone I would not use the washing machine, electric induction cooking or an oven in a situation of a grid power outage... But you can run your heat pump, fridge, lights and wifi at home, and that will last a few days with a 100KW battery in the car.

None of the appliances in a home runs continuously. My monthly energy usage is around 500kWhr in the winter and 800kWhr in the summer … and that includes charging my car and driving about 500-750 miles a month. With an average of 15-25kWhr per day, the car battery would last about 4-6 days, more of i don’t run certain things like A/C or oven/dryer, and realistically 50% longer than that as I wouldn’t be charging my car. So I’d say at least seven to ten days. With just lights and refrigerator (and charging your phone), you could stretch that a lot longer.

 

[Vincent]

None of the appliances in a home runs continuously. My monthly energy usage is around 500kWhr in the winter and 800kWhr in the summer … and that includes charging my car and driving about 500-750 miles a month. With an average of 15-25kWhr per day, the car battery would last about 4-6 days, more of i don’t run certain things like A/C or oven/dryer, and realistically 50% longer than that as I wouldn’t be charging my car. So I’d say at least seven to ten days. With just lights and refrigerator (and charging your phone), you could stretch that a lot longer.

None of the appliances in a home runs continuously, yes that's obvious. And I did state that:

For that reason alone I would not use the washing machine, electric induction cooking or an oven in a situation of a grid power outage... But you can run your heat pump, fridge, lights and wifi at home, and that will last a few days with a 100KW battery in the car.

Some people here were talking about that 48 Amp would be not enough for their homes to run on.

I use about 0.8 KW/h in winter and 0.6 Kw/H in summer.
But in stelth mode with only wifi, the fridge and Led Lights and sometimes shortly the water pump and use the wood fire to heat the house. Then I have an average use about 0.2 Kw/H should be able to have 20 days of electricity wit the 100Kw/h battery of the car.

All I am saying here is the 100Kw/H battery should be more than sufficient to run your most importent stuff on.
In case of a grid power outage, if you use it in a smart way. So I guess we agree on that.

 

[MTN Ranger]

Here's a good description of the Ford bi-directional setup:

 

[Freecabc]

My understanding from speaking with different folks (i.e. electrical contractors, utility reps, EV industry leaders) is that the UL listing is what is holding V2x up. In Cali my cynical side thinks its the CPUC . UL certification takes about 6 months as published on their site. Fermata Energy (Fermata Energy’s Newest V2X Bidirectional Charger — the FE-20 — Available Q1 2023) also in this race is Nuvve but both are for Nissan LEAF. That's my current EV and I'll likely use it as battery to PV system @ home vs. going with the Fisker. I am interested to see the Fisker warranty and be sure that using bidirectional is covered. Weird Fisker keeps pumping wallbox when there are other solutions out there that might be closer on the horizon.

 

[MTN Ranger]

My understanding from speaking with different folks (i.e. electrical contractors, utility reps, EV industry leaders) is that the UL listing is what is holding V2x up. In Cali my cynical side thinks its the CPUC . UL certification takes about 6 months as published on their site. Fermata Energy (Fermata Energy’s Newest V2X Bidirectional Charger — the FE-20 — Available Q1 2023) also in this race is Nuvve but both are for Nissan LEAF. That's my current EV and I'll likely use it as battery to PV system @ home vs. going with the Fisker. I am interested to see the Fisker warranty and be sure that using bidirectional is covered. Weird Fisker keeps pumping wallbox when there are other solutions out there that might be closer on the horizon.

Thanks for the info. I haven't heard of Fermata before. I just entered the form for them to contact me when they have more info.

It seems like there will be at least four V2H/V2G systems from various companies available for 2023.

I feel Fisker chose Wallbox since they are a major EVSE maker that 1) already has two L2 EVSEs available now and 2) a V2H/V2G system coming soon.

There may be compatibility issues since the standard is not finalized yet. The Ford unit may not work with the Ocean.
"Ryan O’Gorman, Ford’s lead strategist for energy services, said in an email, “At this time, the F-150 Lightning isn’t compatible with other options. As we understand it, the ISO 15118-20 is not released yet. And as with the ISO and SAE charging standards in market today, when that 15118-20 standard is released — including bidirectional power transfer — one could expect manufacturers (like Ford) who have implemented accepted standards in the past to support those future standards."

Are bidirectional EV chargers ready for the home market?

With a stream of EVs coming on the market, the race to introduce bidirectional charging is heating up.

techcrunch.com

 

[SeaPhil4]

That Emporia V2G above looks promising. I am hoping my One is ready at about the same time so that i can order it and not have to buy a “temporary charger” to sell soon afterwards.

 

[onevoice]

That Emporia V2G above looks promising. I am hoping my One is ready at about the same time so that i can order it and not have to buy a “temporary charger” to sell soon afterwards.

That's my hope and plan as well. Let's keep our fingers crossed. The biggest obstacle for release of the Emporia V2G solution appears to be the approval of the relevant ISO specification. But I believe Emporia's estimate of release is in 2nd half of 2023 and we may be getting the Oceans before that.

 

[SeaPhil4]

That's my hope and plan as well. Let's keep our fingers crossed. The biggest obstacle for release of the Emporia V2G solution appears to be the approval of the relevant ISO specification. But I believe Emporia's estimate of release is in 2nd half of 2023 and we may be getting the Oceans before that.

I guess i’ll just grab their portable L2 system for $399 and either keep it as a safety backup on roadtrips or turn around and sell it for close to what i paid for it. Too bad Washington State- home of “the Greenest Governor”- no longer has any home charger (or EV) credits/rebates any longer. I guess all the Amazon/Microsoft/Google execs who bought thousands of them the past 10 years blew up the rebate fund for the rest of us 😂