Fisker Ocean Forum banner
1 - 20 of 109 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
406 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I’m back from a 1,000 mile round trip that I made in an EV for the first time. This was an eventful trip. I came back from it with a bad taste after having dealt with the scarce DC charging infrastructure. The trip was over the Labor Day weekend in the US, so the deficiencies that existed in the DC charging infrastructure were exacerbated by the highest number of non-Tesla EVs on the roads since the beginning of time as well as by the busiest travel day in the US in several years.

The short version of my story is that the non-Tesla DC charging infrastructure is badly lacking in the US. My experience charging on this trip was exclusively with Electrify America for the lack of other options in the areas where I drove. At every site I experienced non-working DC chargers (25 to 50% of chargers at each site did not work). Entire EA sites had reduced power (maximum of 33 kW supplied even by 350 kW chargers), charging session interrupted, charging stalls with non-working NFC readers, long waits for a working stall, etc.

I used ABRP with an OBD BT dongle for charging stop planning and also for navigation with real-time range calculations factoring in real SOC of the EV. This made the trip possible, but the issues with the charging infrastructure are a huge hurdle to overcome. Unless the charging infrastructure improves, road trips in a non-Tesla EV will become excruciatingly painful within a few months, as the number of non-Tesla EVs on the road increases exponentially.

Another thing that I realized was that the mimimim range that I will consider in a future EV is 350 miles, which becomes 300 miles at 75 mph speeds and gets reduced significantly in the winter. This would allow me to skip every other EA location, which are currently spaced out about between 80 and 110 miles from one another along the interstate highway system in my area of the country.

With the ID.4, I had to hit every single EA location charging to 80% or less on the way from Atlanta to Orlando. Another realization I came to was that with the sub-300 mile EV, it’s better to charge to 100% (even trough the charging rate drops 50% once the SOC is above 90%) the extra 10 -15 minutes waiting for the EV to charge to 100% pays off with being able to drive without range anxiety during busy holidays like Labor Day, while being stuck in traffic jams, having to take detours around massive accident delays, etc. Charging to 80% and then having to get off at every EA location and wait in line is frustrating and maddening.

All in all, we made a 6-hour trip from Orlando to Atlanta in 11 hours, not having spent one extra minute off the interstate not charging or waiting to charge. We got back home with a 27% SOC, having charged to 100% at the last EA location and having skipped another recommended EA location south of Atlanta. The last leg of our trip back home I was able to drive at 80 mph just because I decided to charge to 100% even though ABRP suggested to charge to 77% and hit another EA location South of Atlanta. I figured I might be stuck at that EA location for hours waiting for my turn, so I made an executive decision to disobey ABRP, violate all best practices for EV road trips and charge to 100%. It ended up being the best leg of our trip, as we drove without a charging stop for over 3 hours (as close to the ICEV driving experience as possible).

While in Orlando, we had to make three (one-hour-long round trips) to get a charge and then spend another hour waiting in line and charging. We ended up wasting over 6 hours total for charging and driving to the DC location and back over a three-day weekend. We also drove 150 extra miles between the hotel and the DC charger. All of this is complete and utter nonsense compared to how we would spend our weekend if we still had our ICEV SUV.
 

·
Registered
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR RWD
Joined
·
802 Posts
Thanks for this honest - and incredibly depressing - report. This is the BIG worry! With the SuperCharger network I have always been able to go anywhere without really giving it another thought. No route planners, no nothing. Just get in and go. Car knows when to stop and for how long. Chargers work. The end. EA has got to get its act together. It made a huge strategic error by skipping over the hard part and not designing and manufacturing its own charging equipment. Now it has a dogs breakfast of various manufacturers' equipment and interoperability problems out the wazoo. What a mess.
 
  • Like
Reactions: slipnslider

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
I’m back from a 1,000 mile round trip that I made in an EV for the first time. This was an eventful trip. I came back from it with a bad taste after having dealt with the scarce DC charging infrastructure. The trip was over the Labor Day weekend in the US, so the deficiencies that existed in the DC charging infrastructure were exacerbated by the highest number of non-Tesla EVs on the roads since the beginning of time as well as by the busiest travel day in the US in several years.

The short version of my story is that the non-Tesla DC charging infrastructure is badly lacking in the US. My experience charging on this trip was exclusively with Electrify America for the lack of other options in the areas where I drove. At every site I experienced non-working DC chargers (25 to 50% of chargers at each site did not work). Entire EA sites had reduced power (maximum of 33 kW supplied even by 350 kW chargers), charging session interrupted, charging stalls with non-working NFC readers, long waits for a working stall, etc.

I used ABRP with an OBD BT dongle for charging stop planning and also for navigation with real-time range calculations factoring in real SOC of the EV. This made the trip possible, but the issues with the charging infrastructure are a huge hurdle to overcome. Unless the charging infrastructure improves, road trips in a non-Tesla EV will become excruciatingly painful within a few months, as the number of non-Tesla EVs on the road increases exponentially.

Another thing that I realized was that the mimimim range that I will consider in a future EV is 350 miles, which becomes 300 miles at 75 mph speeds and gets reduced significantly in the winter. This would allow me to skip every other EA location, which are currently spaced out about between 80 and 110 miles from one another along the interstate highway system in my area of the country.

With the ID.4, I had to hit every single EA location charging to 80% or less on the way from Atlanta to Orlando. Another realization I came to was that with the sub-300 mile EV, it’s better to charge to 100% (even trough the charging rate drops 50% once the SOC is above 90%) the extra 10 -15 minutes waiting for the EV to charge to 100% pays off with being able to drive without range anxiety during busy holidays like Labor Day, while being stuck in traffic jams, having to take detours around massive accident delays, etc. Charging to 80% and then having to get off at every EA location and wait in line is frustrating and maddening.

All in all, we made a 6-hour trip from Orlando to Atlanta in 11 hours, not having spent one extra minute off the interstate not charging or waiting to charge. We got back home with a 27% SOC, having charged to 100% at the last EA location and having skipped another recommended EA location south of Atlanta. The last leg of our trip back home I was able to drive at 80 mph just because I decided to charge to 100% even though ABRP suggested to charge to 77% and hit another EA location South of Atlanta. I figured I might be stuck at that EA location for hours waiting for my turn, so I made an executive decision to disobey ABRP, violate all best practices for EV road trips and charge to 100%. It ended up being the best leg of our trip, as we drove without a charging stop for over 3 hours (as close to the ICEV driving experience as possible).

While in Orlando, we had to make three (one-hour-long round trips) to get a charge and then spend another hour waiting in line and charging. We ended up wasting over 6 hours total for charging and driving to the DC location and back over a three-day weekend. We also drove 150 extra miles between the hotel and the DC charger. All of this is complete and utter nonsense compared to how we would spend our weekend if we still had our ICEV SUV.
The irony that the Electrify America system was built by (and is owned by) VW as part of their "punishment" for DieselGate, and you experienced it's weaknesses in a VW. We have a long way to go for the infrastructure to catch up to the EV demand. I'm sure it's no better, if not far worse, here in Canada. I have solar panels on my house and will be installing a charger which is all fine and good when I'm driving around town, but long trips like what you're describing are more than a little concerning right now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
406 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
I think that road-trips in a Fisker Ocean would be a little less frustrating because the range is supposedly 350 miles vs 260 miles in the ID.4. The real-life highway road-trip range will be nowhere near 350 miles, though.

With the ID.4, my efficiency was at 3.0 miles per kWh driving at an average speed of 72 mph. The battery in the ID.4 is 77 kW usable (82 total). So, on a 100% charge, one would get 232 miles of range in ideal conditions (no head wind, summer driving, etc.) when driving at an average speed of 72 mph. In the winter (0 F; -18 C), the range could be reduced to below 150 miles on 100% charge in the ID.4 driving at the same average speed. If you want to charge to 80% during the road trips (recommended to extend battery life), your range could be as low as 120 miles in winter. With headwind in the winter, the range could be as bad as 100 miles at highway speeds (probably worst case scenario).

So, the ID.4 is basically an in-town vehicle, especially in winter time in the US - if you ask me. For in-town driving, the ID.4 is a really nice vehicle with a pretty phenomenal ride quality (unlike my Model Y, whose ride quality is sub-par).

Hopefully, the Fisker Ocean can break out of the “best-for-in-town-driving” mold and become a more-or-less viable road-trip vehicle due to its significantly better range than the ID.4.

If Tesla opens up its supercharger network to non-Tesla EVs, the charging infrastructure will immediately improve drastically for non-Tesla EVS, but will worsen for Tesla EVs, so I don’t know if Musk will ever do this in North America.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
703 Posts
God this makes me weep. I hope Tesla opens up their SC’s to non-Teslas asap as agreed to- even if they throttle back to 150kwh from 250 or 350kwh. Extra locations can only help. I am not holding my breath as I know this will probably take well into 2023/2024 but its something to look forward to.
In the meanwhile, c’mon EA , get with it already!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
406 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
God this makes me weep. I hope Tesla opens up their SC’s to non-Teslas asap as agreed to- even if they throttle back to 150kwh from 250 or 350kwh. Extra locations can only help. I am not holding my breath as I know this will probably take well into 2023/2024 but its something to look forward to.
In the meanwhile, c’mon EA , get with it already!!
Tesla would have no reason to slow down the charging rate, as it would only exacerbate the congestion if each EV takes longer to charge. What they may do is charge $1 per kWh for non-Tesla EVs, which would make it more expensive to drive an EV than an ICEV while on a road trip. The alternative would be having to deal with EA and long waits.
 

·
Registered
2018 Tesla M3 LR | 2021 VW ID.4 AWD
Joined
·
859 Posts
Having done trips with the ID.4 & Tesla; it is night & day difference. Any trip that I know we will need to stop en route, we will only take the Tesla. I have done trip charging with the ID.4 but it is always at or near the destination for the return trip home so not worried about being stranded. I will let the Tesla get down below 10% before charging as I am never worried getting to the Supercharger and not being able to charge. I do not have the same assurances with the ID.4 so always need to make sure to have a backup plan if the selected location has issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
406 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Having done trips with the ID.4 & Tesla; it is night & day difference. Any trip that I know we will need to stop en route, we will only take the Tesla. I have done trip charging with the ID.4 but it is always at or near the destination for the return trip home so not worried about being stranded. I will let the Tesla get down below 10% before charging as I am never worried getting to the Supercharger and not being able to charge. I do not have the same assurances with the ID.4 so always need to make sure to have a backup plan if the selected location has issues.
Hence, from now on, I will always charge to 100% on a road trip in the ID.4 to get a chance to skip an EA site and go to the next one.
 

·
Registered
Referral Code: 8Z0AXK 63,000+
Joined
·
1,336 Posts
@sirozha
the non-Tesla DC charging infrastructure is badly lacking in the US.
Agreed. My Fisker Ocean will ONLY do long trips after the Tesla SC network is open to all!
 

·
Registered
2013 BMW X3 - Reserved
Joined
·
66 Posts
One major consideration for my Sport (20” wheels) order is the LFP batteries. Daily charging to 100% with no adverse issues. Keeping fingers crossed Fisker surprises us with and EPA rating of closer to 280 mi. The standard heat pump will help with winter mileage.
 

·
Registered
Referral Code: 8Z0AXK 63,000+
Joined
·
1,336 Posts
One major consideration for my Sport (20” wheels) order is the LFP batteries. Daily charging to 100% with no adverse issues.
Totally agree!
Those who require the Fisker Ocean for "daily use only" should seriously consider
the Sport model with LFP battery with daily 100% charging.
 

·
Registered
2018 Tesla M3 LR | 2021 VW ID.4 AWD
Joined
·
859 Posts
Hence, from now on, I will always charge to 100% on a road trip in the ID.4 to get a chance to skip an EA site and go to the next one.
The problem is that it takes almost as long to go from 80-100% as it does to go from 20-80%. DCFC charging beyond 80% is extremely inefficient and you are exacerbating the issues with charging in the U.S. You are much better off hitting more stations and spending half the time at each station and freeing up the stall for someone else to charge up to 80%. Tesla will adjust your charge limit to 80% at most of their superchargers (of course, you can easily raise it).

Fortunately, charging to 100% on the ID.4 is like charging to 75% on the Ocean.

Colorfulness Slope Rectangle Font Software
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
406 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
I disagree with this logic completely, even though I have known about this for a long time and at one point I took this hypothesis for granted. I even used this method during the latest trip until I realized that’s it’s faulty.

1. It takes at least 5 minutes to get from
the highway to the charging site and another 5 minutes to get back on the highway.

2. It takes another 5 minutes to park the car, get out, plug in the charging handle, make the payment, initiate charging, and let charging ramp up to the maximum charging rate.

3. With only four charging stalls and one or two of the four usually not working, you may have to move the vehicle to another stall once you realize the one you parked at is not operational. That’s another couple minutes.

So, we are talking 15 minutes of overhead just to make an extra charging stop before the vehicle even starts charging at full charging rate.

Sometimes, simply moving the car to another stall doesn’t work, so you have to call EA and be on hold (between a few minutes and up to 15 minutes). Then, it may take them another 10-15 minutes to look up the stall you are at and try to restart it or what not. So, your extra charging stop may have up to 30 minutes of overhead, but it definitely has at least 15 minutes of overhead.

4. You may arrive at the next charging station and find that all working stalls are in use, so you may have to wait another 20-30 minutes for a working stall to become available.

This overhead on average accounts for the extra time you would spend charging between 80% and 100% SOC at a working DC charging stall.. Additionally, there aren’t EA or any other DC charging stations at every highway exit, so normally you would have to either hit every single DC charging site (if you charge to less than 80% SOC) or you could skip every other DC charging site if you were to charge to 100% SOC. It will give you more flexibility as to which DC charging site to charge at along the route if you charge to 100%.

Therefore. charging to 100% of SOC gives you more flexibility and - averaged out - doesn’t consume any more time if you calculate the entire time you are not driving at highway speeds, including exiting the highway, driving to the charging location, sometimes waiting in line. parking, initiating charging, stopping charging, driving back to the highway, etc. And how about if your next charging site has reduced output and only charges at 33 kW? In this case, you would be charging from the SOC you arrived with at 33kW, which would not save you any time at all compared to charging to 100% SOC.

If you had enough SOC left when getting to a reduced-power-output DC charging site (as happened to me twice on this trip), you could simply decide to skip this one and go to the next. But if you arrived with 10% SOC, as Kyle suggests, you are stuck at this site for 90 minutes (if you are lucky to get a functioning stall right away because at these sites with reduced output, there are usually EVs waiting in line to charge due to each EV taking three times as long to get charged.

So, Kyle’s recommendations of riding the lower half of the SOC scale are only valid in theory or ideal conditions when there are plenty of available charging stalls that are 100% operational 100% of the time at the maximum rated charging speed. None of these conditions proved to be true during my 1,000 mile trip.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
272 Posts
If Tesla opens up its supercharger network to non-Tesla EVs, the charging infrastructure will immediately improve drastically for non-Tesla EVS, but will worsen for Tesla EVs, so I don’t know if Musk will ever do this in North America.
People need to temper their expectations about the SC network being opened for non teslas. Elon's main goal is tesla's dominance. He's not going to make the fisker charging experience as easy and reliable as the tesla charging experience. Be ready for long lines at the very few non-tesla plugs at superchargers, watching tesla's breeze in and out on their dedicated plugs while you wait to charge at broken chargers or lower speeds. The goal will be to make us suffer so that we switch to buying a tesla.
 

·
Registered
2018 Tesla M3 LR | 2021 VW ID.4 AWD
Joined
·
859 Posts
People need to temper their expectations about the SC network being opened for non teslas. Elon's main goal is tesla's dominance. He's not going to make the fisker charging experience as easy and reliable as the tesla charging experience. Be ready for long lines at the very few non-tesla plugs at superchargers, watching tesla's breeze in and out on their dedicated plugs while you wait to charge at broken chargers or lower speeds. The goal will be to make us suffer so that we switch to buying a tesla.
That is not how human conditioning works. People will not remember seeing some other car; people will remember how bad an experience is charging with Tesla and will associate charging at Tesla with owning a Tesla and be put off from buying one. Tesla will lose potential customers if they try those tactics.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
272 Posts
That is not how human conditioning works. People will not remember seeing some other car; people will remember how bad an experience is charging with Tesla and will associate charging at Tesla with owning a Tesla and be put off from buying one. Tesla will lose potential customers if they try those tactics.
They'll lose customers by maintaining their charging superiority and making competitors' customers suffer? Unlikely. It'll take just a few frustrating road trips of waiting to charge while you witness firsthand how much easier it is for teslas to make people decide to overlook all tesla's other issues. I own a tesla now. I've learned how elon works. He's all about winning and accumulating power. He's not going to just give up his biggest advantage by sharing it with everyone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
406 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Here’s another thought that I have vis-a-vis non-Tesla EVs. It would make it much more palatable if the US government used the EV subsidies to subsidize a build-out of the DC charging infrastructure rather than using this money to subsidize the purchase of EVs. Incentivizing the purchase of EVs without developing the charging infrastructure will lead to a gridlock at non-Tesla DC charging stations very quickly, and then we will witness a backlash from EV owners.

My family now owns two EVs and no ICEVs. On the way back from our trip we were discussing which ICE SUV we should buy now because owning two EVs and no ICEVs is proving to be untenable. Now, one of our EVs is a Tesla Model Y. but I’ve been mostly garaging it waiting to trade it in for something bigger with a better ride quality, but an EV. I’ve never taken it on a road trip, trying to keep low miles and only driving it for a few miles twice a month. If it weren’t for the sub-par ride quality, we would make the Model Y our out-of-town long-road-trip EV, but the ride quality is pretty awful even in town. I have pre-orders for a Rivian R1S and will reserve an EV9 as soon as the reservations are open. But again, with any non-Tesla EV, I will have a similar issue with the scarce and unreliable charging infrastructure. I’m actually at a loss right now as to what we should do about our road-trip vehicle. Buying an ICE SUV doesn’t feel right, but we are already dreading going on another long road trip in the ID.4. We will have to travel by car a lot this year (son is in travel hockey). In the summer, we travel to Quebec by car, and this summer we still had an ICE SUV (Kia Sorento), but then we traded it in for the ID.4. So, we have to figure something out before next summer, as it would be masochistic trying to drive to Quebec from Atlanta in the ID.4.
 

·
Registered
2018 Tesla M3 LR | 2021 VW ID.4 AWD
Joined
·
859 Posts
They'll lose customers by maintaining their charging superiority and making competitors' customers suffer? Unlikely. It'll take just a few frustrating road trips of waiting to charge while you witness firsthand how much easier it is for teslas to make people decide to overlook all tesla's other issues. I own a tesla now. I've learned how elon works. He's all about winning and accumulating power. He's not going to just give up his biggest advantage by sharing it with everyone.
If you ever had an airline lose your luggage - do you remember the other 100 people that got theirs or do you remembers yours being lost?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Baker
1 - 20 of 109 Posts
Top